This conversation occurred on facebook, with Kyle’s permission I have copied and pasted it directly as written, leaving off the part where I ask for his permission at the very end of the conversation. Kyle has asked that I not bash him and I also ask that of anyone reads this, he seems to be open to conversation though so I am sure you can contact him thru the comments section here. (I wish you would keep it on this blog though).
And just so you know, Kyle is a good guy, he is nice, his faith is strong, but I have never seen any hypocritical behavior come out of his life…the type of Christian, if one is going to be a Christian, that one should strive to be. Even though I don’t know Kyle very well I have always had a lot of respect for his positive attitude toward life, often in contrast for my often cynical attitude.
The conversation started by asking Kyle if it was ok if I joined his facebook group called “The FoUND project” since I had received an invite from him, I simply asked that if I did join if he would mind if I played the devils advocate a bit, respectfully.
My text is the white text
Kyles text will be this color
Thanks for reading.
July 21 at 7:33pm
Thanks for asking, I would rather you not play devil’s advocate in this group.
How’ve you been doing?
July 21 at 7:34pm
quite well Kyle, I expect you are doing well?
and not a problem, just wanted to make sure it was ok if I did.
If you ever need one, let me know
July 21 at 7:35pm
I’m doing quite well, too, my friend. Just staying busy as usual!
if you were to play devil’s advocate, what would say?
July 21 at 7:36pm
I just like to ask questions Kyle… the most important thing we can ever do to strengthen our faith is to ask questions. God can handle tough questions right?
July 21 at 7:39pm
I agree with that. If you know that God can handle tough questions, are you atheist?
July 21 at 7:41pm
I am appealing to your beliefs, your terms…not mine…I am an atheist…although it is new to me
July 21 at 7:42pm
I see, I see. What led you to atheism?
July 21 at 7:46pm
i will answer with a question…
if my soul depends on it…shouldn’t god provide evidence for himself? because i do. The burden of proof lies on god, as the almighty and creator of all things he should be required to provide definite answers to any questions that might lead to any doubt in him.
do you agree?
This is one of the questions that led me here.
July 21 at 7:52pm
Who are we to demand anything from God?…Even if we were to pose every single question before God..who are we that he should give an answer? Who are we, as mere humans..mere mortals..to demand a single ounce of attention from God?
As far as God providing evidence for himself..show me that the doesn’t exist..
July 21 at 7:59pm
we are his beloved creation are we not? If thats not a position of importance i dont know what is….If god allows me to doubt, as the originator and creator of all things, including sin (you MUST admit this) and doesn’t answer those doubts then i have to seriously reconsider how beloved I must be, and how much Love god actually has.. there are roughly 2.5 Billion christians in the world right now…4 billion of us have some sort of doubt or reason not to believe, God should love us enough to help us not doubt.
regarding evidence, the burden, again, lies on the more absurd claim, if science well explains our current reality, alternative explanations need evidence, not things already proven. Either way the you cant prove god exists and you cant prove he doesnt argument becomes circular…FAST
BTW, i approach this with all due respect.
July 21 at 8:22pm
sorry man, my internet is messing up..had to change computers.
I too approach with all due respect.
Yes, we are his beloved creation. If there were no doubt and we had all the answers..would we need God? If we had all the answers, we wouldn’t need Him. But that’s not reality. The reality is that we don’t know anything (compared to God)..thus, we have doubts. Over and over in the Bible, God says that if we seek Him, He will be found. Examples include: Deuteronomy 4:29 and Acts 17:26-28 and Hebrews 11:6. Look them up.
Tell me, back in high school..why did you believe in God?
July 21 at 8:26pm
in high school i needed god…i was unaware of the things i am now aware of.
perhaps you just answered your question..or my question…what have you…perhaps we dont need god?
July 21 at 8:53pm
Seems to me that…from you saying that you needed God in high school, but dont’ need him now..it makes me wonder if you even knew Him back them..if you even understood God’s grace and Jesus’ sacrifice back then. Sounds like you didn’t.
We need God. We all have been created with an innate awarenes and need for God. What other hope do you have? Yourself?
July 21 at 9:23pm
the question of whether or not i knew god then is…well its a tough one…because there is no way for me to convey the sense of relationship i had with God/Christ…i considered it a very intimate relationship with god…its when i came to the realization of how much emotions play on you when it comes to god belief that helped me let go of that experiential part…which is why so many people find it hard to leave their faith…because like you and I they have experienced god in a way that seems very real…like i said though, there is no way for me to convey that to you or to convince you that i was truly “saved” or that i knew god.
With your assertion that we NEED god, i agree, it has been bred into us to require something to give a generic answer to all of life’s truly difficult question…where did we come from?, what happens after we die?…this is where religion came from…all religion came from a desire to explain things that were beyond comprehension…as science has progressed to explain the more difficult questions, like where did we come from, belief in the myths regarding that question (ie creationism..or god forbid, intelligent design…or even the myths that the root religions had) become outdated and slowly are rejected by realistic society. The point of contention is that we were created that way, i dont see that, i see that thinking man needs to know answers to his questions, if he cant answer it he makes something up…
Regarding hope…what do i need hope for? Hope for what?
July 22 at 8:14pm
You mention religion. Yes, Christianity is a religion, but it goes beyond that to something more..it is not about religion, per se..it is about a relationship with the one and true living God. This is evident in the fact that many church-goers believe that having religion is all they need. And you must admit that that is not true. A person can have all the religion they can handle, yet still die and go to Hell. It’s about a relationship with Christ.
If each man makes up his own “answers,” who determines what is ultimately right? If there were no God and you believe that we all have the right and freedom to make up and believe what we want..why believe in anything in the first place? What would be the point?
To make yourself feel complete? To make yourself feel like you have something worth living for? Ultimately, when you die, the world is just going to brush you under the rug and that’s it.
So, if you don’t believe there is Heaven or Hell, why strive to make up and believe in anything today? Again, to make yourself feel complete or like you have something worth living for? What would be the point? From asking yourself these questions, I hope you’ll see that there is a void in your life that only God can fill. He is the only solution to our disease of sin.
As for me, I know that I don’t have to make up anything to believe in..because Jesus is the only way, truth and the life.
Also, you said “god forbid….” 🙂
I respect the fact that you are being conversational in this email and since you are respectful in this discussion, go ahead and join the group.
July 22 at 9:05pm
You notice Kyle that I also mentioned the relationship…I knew you were going to this place…and like I already said, there is no way possible for me to convey to you that i was 1:truly a Christian, 2: Completely and entirely devoted to the Christ which i lived for, 3: Deeply involved in intimate communion with God…I can say this all day long but i simply can not convey it, its like you trying to explain how you feel about your relationship…you can talk about the friendship you feel with god and the companionship…but you cant really convey that deep sense of comfort and closeness at any point…I have been on the other side talking with atheists as a Christian about this same subject many times, it just is not possible to convey it.
God is also not necessary for morality to exist…Einstein, Dawkins, Twain, Hawkings …great men that did not need god yet they were as moral if not more than many of the most prominent leaders of the Christian world. What all of these important Atheist or Deist figures hold in common is that they hold to a very high regard human life and and a desire to improve our knowledge of the universe and one another. I conclude that this is morality, to care about the society you are in as well as the world at large…you agree and i know this. God has had little to do with the laws that have shaped our society, Christians like to lay the claim that the bible is the foundation for modern lawgiving, but it simply isn’t true (Hammurabi, Grecian and Roman law for instance predate biblical lawgiving outside of Judaism) God simply is not neccessary for morality, in fact, it is by and large the religious world that produces the greatest evils–I don’t need to provide examples for that fact I am sure. Society can define right and wrong without the eye in the sky, it is very simple.
Believing in Heaven and Hell—Eureka! The catalyst for belief in deity for 99.999999% of mankind…FEAR. You FEAR life without God, because according to the bible and nearly every other religious text the world over, non devotion or adherence leads to fear…Christianity isn’t the first religion to come up with this, its a working copy of a working system, that has been working for eons…Scary place, easy–unprovable solution…its the way it is done. I don’t need to work for heaven or have hope for it, I can live for here and now, I can live to serve my fellow man…with no fear of my afterlife and no hope for it either..why work for things you can’t see?
Jesus…well I will let the evidence speak for itself about Jesus.
Here is a great cross-referenced resource for understanding where most of our Jesus mythology comes from…This is just scratching the surface about how many times the Christ archetype has been used by the religious elite to promote belief.
Regarding “god forbid”….my writing style is very intentional…if i capitalize something, leave out a letter, what have you, it was done entirely intentionally…this is one example and was meant in jest…few people pick up on the nuances of my writing style, and it is usually only meant for my own entertainment or reference anyway.
If the invite still stands I will join the group and make it known that I am LoST.