Comments on: Bond servant with Christ–Why? http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/ Just another WordPress site Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:55:36 -0400 hourly 1 By: SpaceGhoti http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-5883 SpaceGhoti Tue, 26 May 2009 11:26:22 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-5883 Ronald: Regarding Pascal's Wager, put in the context of this blog entry, suppose you make yourself a slave to your God. You're happy about this "freedom in bondage" thing, and die secure in the knowledge that you've been a good slave. Then you find out you were slave to the wrong God. You're condemned to eternal damnation because you followed a narrow interpretation of a text borrowing heavily from the religions around it, and so distorted that the true intent has been lost. The flaw in Pascal's Wager is that it assumes we know which of the many hundreds of gods and interpretations of those gods we're supposed to follow. Every religious text, living and dead, assumes that ITS god is paramount. How then do we know which one is the correct one? We don't, of course. This is where Pascal failed. Ronald:

Regarding Pascal's Wager, put in the context of this blog entry, suppose you make yourself a slave to your God. You're happy about this "freedom in bondage" thing, and die secure in the knowledge that you've been a good slave.

Then you find out you were slave to the wrong God. You're condemned to eternal damnation because you followed a narrow interpretation of a text borrowing heavily from the religions around it, and so distorted that the true intent has been lost.

The flaw in Pascal's Wager is that it assumes we know which of the many hundreds of gods and interpretations of those gods we're supposed to follow. Every religious text, living and dead, assumes that ITS god is paramount. How then do we know which one is the correct one?

We don't, of course. This is where Pascal failed.

]]> By: Joshua Jongema http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-495 Joshua Jongema Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:02:37 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-495 Hey Matt, I've read a few of your articles, and though I need more time to read the rest, I have a few thoughts so far. First of all I want to say that I was raised in an Seventh-Day Adventist Church, and they don't hold the doctrines of the Heaven or Hell result. They also don't hold the doctrines of the existence of the eternal soul. This church would pose the idea that we simply 'are' a soul, not that we have some soul, which they would say comes from an incorporation of Greek Dualistic thought. If you've not heard of these ideas before, perhaps you'd like to look into it. I've been to seminars, and I could probably explain them a bit if you're interested. The second thing that comes to mind, particularly when I look at that website you gave as a link to a guy at the bottom of the second page there...http://www.pocm.info/ There is a certain view on history that would offer an argument against these claims, and it starts off by explaining the story of the Christianization of Rome. There are a few posts on my blog which give such information, but I can sum it up I think..The Universal Church created a state sponsored religion, and intentionally threaded together the faiths of the many people within the empire, which happened to be all of the faiths in the known world at the time. They did so by using many different methods, and they actively altered the precepts of Christianity in order to cause it to resemble the many pagan religions. So for example they created an image of the virgin mary and Jesus, and compared it to the image of the Isis/Horus, and told people it was all the same. Now there is this website that shows the same statues, created after the fact, and says it's all the same, but I'd say it is not. Threading together a multitude of religious thoughts is central to Globalization. So now after saying all of that, because I want you to know that there are pro-christian arguments against what you are proposing that do actually hold their ground, I will admit that there are some flaws and problems that I myself have with it all. There apparently did exist religions that pre-dated Christ that were extremely similar to Christianity, even without changing a single thing to thread things together as I was saying. That fact alone makes a person think..maybe there is more to all of this than meets the eye. Throughout the Bible, depending on how we read it, we can see how a leader of people spoke for God, claiming to be the only one who could commune with God and then relay what God allegedly said. That's a might bit suspicious isn't it? It all leads me to believe that there is some merit to the idea that the mind is a powerful thing, and that believing is seeing. It makes me think that men have known this for a very long time, and have made followers of those who were too shortsighted to become leaders themselves. It's manipulative..it could be construed as evil perhaps..but maybe that's the way the world just works. If you don't rise above you get swept away. I don't know if I blame them *bites fist* Can I say that and get away with it? :) Oh and I think it's very funny how one person above talks about Satan, and what 'Satan does'. Satan is never once mentioned in the Bible, and I think the word Lucifer only is used twice..the snake in the garden of Eden was actually a talking snake..so where does this image of an evil fallen figure come from really? How has the figure grown throughout history, and what purpose has it had? An interesting topic I think.. Well that's far too long of a post already. Man it's good to be able to show the rational side of my thought process just once. I try to keep a certain...style to me blog you know..there is rhyme and there is reason. Believe that. Hey Matt,
I’ve read a few of your articles, and though I need more time to read the rest, I have a few thoughts so far.
First of all I want to say that I was raised in an Seventh-Day Adventist Church, and they don’t hold the doctrines of the Heaven or Hell result. They also don’t hold the doctrines of the existence of the eternal soul.
This church would pose the idea that we simply ‘are’ a soul, not that we have some soul, which they would say comes from an incorporation of Greek Dualistic thought. If you’ve not heard of these ideas before, perhaps you’d like to look into it. I’ve been to seminars, and I could probably explain them a bit if you’re interested.
The second thing that comes to mind, particularly when I look at that website you gave as a link to a guy at the bottom of the second page there…http://www.pocm.info/
There is a certain view on history that would offer an argument against these claims, and it starts off by explaining the story of the Christianization of Rome. There are a few posts on my blog which give such information, but I can sum it up I think..The Universal Church created a state sponsored religion, and intentionally threaded together the faiths of the many people within the empire, which happened to be all of the faiths in the known world at the time. They did so by using many different methods, and they actively altered the precepts of Christianity in order to cause it to resemble the many pagan religions. So for example they created an image of the virgin mary and Jesus, and compared it to the image of the Isis/Horus, and told people it was all the same. Now there is this website that shows the same statues, created after the fact, and says it’s all the same, but I’d say it is not. Threading together a multitude of religious thoughts is central to Globalization.
So now after saying all of that, because I want you to know that there are pro-christian arguments against what you are proposing that do actually hold their ground, I will admit that there are some flaws and problems that I myself have with it all. There apparently did exist religions that pre-dated Christ that were extremely similar to Christianity, even without changing a single thing to thread things together as I was saying. That fact alone makes a person think..maybe there is more to all of this than meets the eye.
Throughout the Bible, depending on how we read it, we can see how a leader of people spoke for God, claiming to be the only one who could commune with God and then relay what God allegedly said. That’s a might bit suspicious isn’t it?
It all leads me to believe that there is some merit to the idea that the mind is a powerful thing, and that believing is seeing. It makes me think that men have known this for a very long time, and have made followers of those who were too shortsighted to become leaders themselves. It’s manipulative..it could be construed as evil perhaps..but maybe that’s the way the world just works. If you don’t rise above you get swept away. I don’t know if I blame them *bites fist* Can I say that and get away with it? :)
Oh and I think it’s very funny how one person above talks about Satan, and what ‘Satan does’. Satan is never once mentioned in the Bible, and I think the word Lucifer only is used twice..the snake in the garden of Eden was actually a talking snake..so where does this image of an evil fallen figure come from really? How has the figure grown throughout history, and what purpose has it had? An interesting topic I think..
Well that’s far too long of a post already. Man it’s good to be able to show the rational side of my thought process just once. I try to keep a certain…style to me blog you know..there is rhyme and there is reason. Believe that.

]]> By: Ronald Daniels http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-494 Ronald Daniels Wed, 01 Oct 2008 03:51:29 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-494 I don't really find it bothersome because I tend to want to live my life by the standards set forth in the Bible. Ask Matt, I'm about as odd as you can get actually. What you are viewing as a great burden, I view as merely how people should act from a normative standpoint. That is not to say your view isn't right for you, it's simply what you chose to believe - and ultimately that is all this can be. Some people chose to believe some things while others invest their intellect behind other concepts. The way I live my life would be altered if there was no God, but by and large it would remain the same. Unlike most, this was instilled through various Philosophers rather than the Church as I am not the Church-going all the time type. But going back to Pascal; do you really view the damage done by living in false servitude greater than ending up in hell? I mean it's a plausible position to make, but I'm just trying to apply rational choice theory to what we are saying here so that I can grasp it better. (I tend to think in terms of theories from Economics and Political Science, it's a bad curse.) I don’t really find it bothersome because I tend to want to live my life by the standards set forth in the Bible. Ask Matt, I’m about as odd as you can get actually.

What you are viewing as a great burden, I view as merely how people should act from a normative standpoint.

That is not to say your view isn’t right for you, it’s simply what you chose to believe – and ultimately that is all this can be. Some people chose to believe some things while others invest their intellect behind other concepts.

The way I live my life would be altered if there was no God, but by and large it would remain the same. Unlike most, this was instilled through various Philosophers rather than the Church as I am not the Church-going all the time type.

But going back to Pascal; do you really view the damage done by living in false servitude greater than ending up in hell? I mean it’s a plausible position to make, but I’m just trying to apply rational choice theory to what we are saying here so that I can grasp it better. (I tend to think in terms of theories from Economics and Political Science, it’s a bad curse.)

]]> By: Cetta http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-493 Cetta Wed, 01 Oct 2008 02:36:22 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-493 If there is no God, but you choose to live in false slavery in hopes that there is a God, is that not bothersome to you, Ronald? I hope your reply consists of something that Christian as a lifestyle is something you would aspire to even if there is no God. That would be a more correct answer, even though by good deeds alone do you not get to heaven. If there is no God, but you choose to live in false slavery in hopes that there is a God, is that not bothersome to you, Ronald?

I hope your reply consists of something that Christian as a lifestyle is something you would aspire to even if there is no God. That would be a more correct answer, even though by good deeds alone do you not get to heaven.

]]> By: Ronald Daniels http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-492 Ronald Daniels Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:47:21 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-492 I guess it boils down to how much you value certain things then Cetta. I guess it boils down to how much you value certain things then Cetta.

]]> By: Cetta http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-491 Cetta Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:18:58 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-491 Ronald-- If you're wrong, then you were a slave for no reason at all. That's harm done enough for me. Ronald– If you’re wrong, then you were a slave for no reason at all. That’s harm done enough for me.

]]> By: Ronald Daniels http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-490 Ronald Daniels Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:55:35 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-490 I actual lam going to disagree with you Matt. Look at Aristotle's concept of slavery, whereby the slave mutually benefited. Aristotle believed that natural slaves could not take care of themselves, therefore they needed someone. I take it this is the situation implied in the Bible. I've never agreed with the concept of God being so nice as many others believe. Call me a Calvinist or whatever. Ultimately I think this is going to boil down to Pascal's Wager, what is the consequence of not being God's bondservant? If we're wrong nothing happens! But Lenny, big man, if I'm right - you will have saved millions of lives of innocent voters. Ok, maybe that was a Ghostbusters quote but you get what I'm going at. I actual lam going to disagree with you Matt. Look at Aristotle’s concept of slavery, whereby the slave mutually benefited. Aristotle believed that natural slaves could not take care of themselves, therefore they needed someone.

I take it this is the situation implied in the Bible. I’ve never agreed with the concept of God being so nice as many others believe. Call me a Calvinist or whatever.

Ultimately I think this is going to boil down to Pascal’s Wager, what is the consequence of not being God’s bondservant? If we’re wrong nothing happens! But Lenny, big man, if I’m right – you will have saved millions of lives of innocent voters. Ok, maybe that was a Ghostbusters quote but you get what I’m going at.

]]> By: kystorms http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-489 kystorms Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:43:38 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-489 Hi I am glad to see your post was not written with the same hate filled garbage most write with, however may I say two things to you? One - up until 4 years ago, I was not a believer. I had kids, a life ( albeit a very very messed up life) I was in school. I came to the end of myself, and seeing no one else whom I could turn to , God was my saving grace. He is a wonderful Father, he does NOT make you believe in him, he gives you a choice.... he begs you and I to choose life. When being a bond servant to Christ, we are simply saying we choose his walk, we want to be with the ONE person in the entire universe who gladly suffered the pain and death to save me. I want to be with him, to walk his walk, to please him. I only wish I was in anyway, a help to you. I know how hard it is to have someone come up to you and say "I used to be strung out on drugs, now I am strung out on the lord" ( recall that old song?) but it is truth, no matter that I still suffer hard times, and much confusion I still have him and he has without doubt been with me so much these last few months that I can almost feel him standing here now while I write. Either way you decide, know that I will be praying for you, and hope you have great success with this blog and all your endeavors. God Bless You Hi
I am glad to see your post was not written with the same hate filled garbage most write with, however may I say two things to you?
One – up until 4 years ago, I was not a believer. I had kids, a life ( albeit a very very messed up life) I was in school.
I came to the end of myself, and seeing no one else whom I could turn to , God was my saving grace. He is a wonderful Father, he does NOT make you believe in him, he gives you a choice…. he begs you and I to choose life.
When being a bond servant to Christ, we are simply saying we choose his walk, we want to be with the ONE person in the entire universe who gladly suffered the pain and death to save me. I want to be with him, to walk his walk, to please him. I only wish I was in anyway, a help to you. I know how hard it is to have someone come up to you and say “I used to be strung out on drugs, now I am strung out on the lord” ( recall that old song?) but it is truth, no matter that I still suffer hard times, and much confusion I still have him and he has without doubt been with me so much these last few months that I can almost feel him standing here now while I write.
Either way you decide, know that I will be praying for you, and hope you have great success with this blog and all your endeavors.

God Bless You

]]> By: Aimey http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-488 Aimey Tue, 30 Sep 2008 03:50:36 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-488 I always saw your comments on cettas LJ. And truthfully I used to think to myself "this guy is so smart, how the hell is he Christian?". I didn't realize until now you aren't anymore. This post is awesome. Someone has to be a slave to believe in the God of the bible. Back when I was Christian even learning-- and asking about heaven terrified me. I was told in heaven you can not feel sadness or miss the people who got left behind for not believing, because you would be so consumed with gods love you couldn't feel anything bad. To me that sounded like a bunch of mindless zombies up there drooling over human flesh. But yeah, a lot of Christians focus on the whole "free choice" thing. God suposedly gave us the choice to believe in him to recieve heaven atc. WTF kind of "choice" is that? If someone walked up to me on the street and and said "you have two choices, you can have an orgasm right now or you can have your eyeball ripped out". Would it really be a CHOICE? I always saw your comments on cettas LJ. And truthfully I used to think to myself “this guy is so smart, how the hell is he Christian?”. I didn’t realize until now you aren’t anymore.

This post is awesome. Someone has to be a slave to believe in the God of the bible. Back when I was Christian even learning– and asking about heaven terrified me. I was told in heaven you can not feel sadness or miss the people who got left behind for not believing, because you would be so consumed with gods love you couldn’t feel anything bad. To me that sounded like a bunch of mindless zombies up there drooling over human flesh.

But yeah, a lot of Christians focus on the whole “free choice” thing. God suposedly gave us the choice to believe in him to recieve heaven atc. WTF kind of “choice” is that? If someone walked up to me on the street and and said “you have two choices, you can have an orgasm right now or you can have your eyeball ripped out”. Would it really be a CHOICE?

]]> By: Cetta http://ragingrev.com/2008/09/bond-servant-with-christ-why/#comment-487 Cetta Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:56:54 +0000 http://theoxley.ronalddaniels.com/?p=343#comment-487 Now on a more serious note: According to Christian traditions either way you are a "slave". You're either a "slave" to Christ, and in that you're "saved" and truly free -- I actually heard one pastor call it "freedom in bondage". WOW @ THAT, btw. Or you're a slave to the Devil and you're chained to him without even knowing it. Chained by your sins. Have you ever heard that ideology before? Either way, according to what YOU said on this entry, you're pretty much screwed, in the Christians point of view. So then why not choose which side will NOT bring suffering? I also agree with Ronald -- it's that type of thinking that is appeals to a lot of people of faith. Now on a more serious note: According to Christian traditions either way you are a “slave”. You’re either a “slave” to Christ, and in that you’re “saved” and truly free — I actually heard one pastor call it “freedom in bondage”. WOW @ THAT, btw.

Or you’re a slave to the Devil and you’re chained to him without even knowing it. Chained by your sins.

Have you ever heard that ideology before?

Either way, according to what YOU said on this entry, you’re pretty much screwed, in the Christians point of view.

So then why not choose which side will NOT bring suffering?

I also agree with Ronald — it’s that type of thinking that is appeals to a lot of people of faith.

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