Gay Marriage: A Cause for All!

GayMarriageflagThe Iowa Supreme Court recently struck down a ban on same sex or gay marriage. I personally could not be happier for the homosexual constituents of Iowa and am glad to see that many are now getting married to their loved ones. Some, however, cannot leave well enough alone… There were already people lined up ready to protest this decision just hours after it was made. Some Christians are currently in outrage, and I really want to know why…What will it harm the “family” to expand it’s definition to same sex couples? Will it in any way affect the way you guide and lead your own family?

I may have been really liberal as a Christian (I wasn’t on any other issue), but this is one of those issues I just couldn’t

The Gay Mafia?

The Gay Mafia?

see eye to eye on with the established Right…I just never saw this Gay Mafia that I keep hearing about, I never thought that they were trying to do anything more than fight for their own rights. Of course I may have kept it in mind to “Love the sinner but hate the sin” or something like that, but I just couldn’t imagine myself trying to impede on the rights of others. Maybe I just had way too many gay (before and currently, both out and closeted) friends to think about it in such a black and white way.

I, and many of my Atheist counterparts (and homosexuals too) would gladly take up arms and die to ensure that religious people had the rights to practice their religion freely so long as they don’t attempt to subvert our own freedom in that practice. That goes for the freedom to be and live as a homosexual however one pleases…that doesn’t seem too hard for me, or very bizarre at that. Why can’t Christendom, or Islam, …or well…anyone that enjoys the freedom of religion and the ability to marry the person you love stand up and fight for the rights of  homosexuals rather than to fight against?

I know I am kind of mixing two different issues here but I am doing that to make a point- We all have causes that we are passionate about, one party wants freedom for itself, but too often it wants freedom for no other.  Freedom should be for all or it isn’t freedom; it isn’t about right wing or left wing, theism or non-theism, gay or straight…it should quite simply be about freedom. If we all work together to fight for the freedom of one another we can move on to greater issues in a peaceful way.

So, Christians or anyone else that applies —answer these questions for me:

What does it harm you if gay people can get married?

If they can adopt children?

Will it harm your family unit to live down the street from a same sex couple? or even to befriend them?

You don’t have to agree with everything a person does in order to love them or treat them with respect, I don’t have to care about your angry god or his weird message of salvation to be able to believe and fight for your right to follow him. Many of the founding fathers of this nation were Atheist , Deist, or Agnostic – yet they were adamant about having religious freedom written into the Constitution because they had seen the destruction and persecution that would come about if the Church and the State were too close together- That is what we should all be fighting to prevent, and I think we should all just do that together.  Make Gay Rights an issue for everyone as a show of solidarity…Make a statement that you value Freedom and want others to experience it the way you do.

Please Stumble and Digg this post if you agree.

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  • There are some problems with freedom, with everyone believing they should never be stopped from doing anything they think of. People have fought for children to have the "right" to sexual relationships with adults, for the right to drugs, for the right to go into bathroom or locker rooms of the opposite sex, for the right to build whatever they want on their own property or keep their property in as much disrepair as they want. Not everything that isn't good has an immediate effect on others but the ruin of the society is still creeping in.

    • none of these things have anything to do with what we are talking about though, and you can't equate sexual freedom with pedophilia, at least not on my watch. What about Homosexuals and their ability to marry affects you or anything or anyone in any way negatively whatsoever?

    • What the hell are you talking about? How can you compare adults banging children to people taking drugs?

  • "I, and many of my Atheist counterparts (and homosexuals too) would gladly take up arms and die to ensure that religious people had the rights to practice their religion freely so long as they don’t attempt to subvert our own freedom in that practice."

    Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccckkkkk that.

    • I certainly don't speak for everyone…

  • If you believe that homosexuality is wrong – you will fight gay marriage. Thankfully, I'm not in that camp – AT ALL. I believe that gays and lesbians should have the right to marry, just like straight people have the right to marry. However, the problem also rests with the gay and lesbian community. They have not done enough to fight for their rights. I'm a black American. We now have a black president. You better believe I am f*cking proud of that. If gays and lesbians want full rights – they need to FIGHT. They need to come out of the closet and FIGHT. The problem is, people are not willing to risk ridicule, losing their job, alienating their family or whatever to FIGHT. However, I don't know that I respect that. If I were young enough to live during the civil rights movement, I'm sure I would have been out on the streets, risking my life as a black woman. I'm fortunate enough to have many freedoms that came to me because of the courage of others. The gays and lesbians have people like Harvey Milk in their past, but they need many more courageous individuals to step out and FIGHT.

    • and BTW…had I been alive during the civil struggles in the early 20th centure, I can assure you my white ass would have been in the streets with you

      • The Christians have the right to fight against gay marriage – and their winning – because the gays and lesbians aren't fighting back, at least not enough. Martin Luther King risked his life so that black Americans could see the "promise land." Now, as a black woman, I get to enjoy many rights. If it weren't for people like him, my black ass would still be sitting on the back of the damn bus. If you're gay or lesbian – come out of the fucking closet and fight back if you want the full rights that you deserve.

        (Sorry for my French)

        Jolie du Pre
        (A bisexual married black woman who is out of the closet.)

  • @ Jolie,

    Thanks for your comment…I think it's sad that just because you think something is wrong that you would fight against the right to express it…I clearly think that Christianity is very very wrong..yet I would honestly fight to defend that right…I just think that we should be past that point at this period in our evolution and it is sad to me that we are not.

    I agree with you on coming out, I had to come out of the Atheist closet, but I have lots of friends still gay and in the closet…and they are afraid because of their church or parents religious fervor and what they may do to them. It makes me very sad for my closeted friends. I think that though you may have the right to be in the closet you do your movement and your cause a disservice by being ashamed. I think Harvey Milk did put it quite well–Come out and come out now so that your families and friends can see the impact of their intolerance.

    • I think you may have just cracked why so many right-wing christians believe they will be censored by atheist and liberals. They themselves seek to censor that which they disagree with so when those who disagree with them have power they expect the same. I must say it sounds like an interesting hypothesis.

  • I can’t believe anyone would say we are not fighting. But it can’t just be the queers fighting for lgbt rights, we need the help of everyone who supports those rights! We didn’t elect a black president by black votes alone, but by a multitude of those who support social and racial justice. We’re fighting, alright, and if you believe in equality, join our ranks. We need you, too!

  • Thanks for posting this Matt!!! I agree 100%.

    A lot of religious people don't seem to understand that the legal state of marriage is separate from the religious ceremony. here in MA gay marriage has been legal for a few years now, but churches can still say no if they don't want to perform the ceremony. A lot of religious people don't seem to get that it's 2 separate things.

    Being legally married comes with over 1,000 legal rights you can't otherwise get. And you can go get married at town hall with no religion involved. I see that as the state and legal side of marriage.

    The ceremony (being married in a church) is the religious part. A part that's not even needed to be legally married.

    That's why I don't understand why they get so angry. No one is asking the law to force churches to give this ceremony to homosexuals. they're just asking for equal rights under the law.

    I got drunk around new years and tried to argue this with my exes Mormon fiance because she was against prop 8 in Cali. She just avoided everything I said.

    Marriage was an institution long before Christianity anyway. I don't see why they think they own marriage.

    But you're right. Freedom should be for anyone regardless of race, gender, religion or sexuality. It baffles my mind how Christians can see themselves so persecuted over things like "The war on christmas" then turn around and fight to deny basic humans rights to people based on who they love.

    • I was going to comment but Aimey's sums it up in a nutshell. The religious ceremony is irrelevant. The homophobic morons can keep that binding and holy contract witnessed by god that never leads to divorce, adultery, or broken families because it's holy and untainted by loving people who just happen to be of the same sex. That's not the actual issue.

      You know, I received an email a couple of nights ago from a relative; it was of the "please forward this email onto everyone you know warning about a hotmail account that can hack your computer if you open the email so you must delete the email if you get it but the important thing is that Microsoft and AOL and Hotmail have definitely 100% confirmed it's a definite 100% threat and you must email a copy of this email warning about the other email to everyone in your contact list and this is definitely 100% genuine and oh god no why are you still reading this when you should be hitting Forward come on come on" types of emails that occasionally come along.

      People who protest against gay marriage remind me of people who forward these emails on; they don't really know what they're doing but they're bowing to peer pressure without giving any thought or consideration to what it is they're actually against. "Doris said that Hilda said that Father Percy said that if gays can marry then the church will have to allow children to fornicate with goats on the altar because Francis said that Clarissa said that Jenny said that Doris said that Hilda said that Father Percy said that's in the bible so that's why I'm against gay marriage. But I've nothing against gay people who I find to be the most lovely of deviants. Unless someone tells me I should be."

  • I totally agree! What the heck does it matter what sex the person you love is. What why is it anyone elses concern!

  • I think this is the first thing youve posted matt that i can basicly agree with 100% lol.

    Im not "for gay marriage" I guess, or I should say I dont agree with homosexuality because it doesnt appear thats what God intended BUT…i feel really no emotion about my state of iowa passing this law nor did i even care. Let gays marry…for all i care let people do what they want. Im a chrsitian and i dont agree per say but I dont have to agree…its their right. Doesnt change anything I do, doesnt change how i will raise my family in the future, doesnt change a single thing to me.

    What it all comes down to (and im going to write a blog about this sometime) is that laws will NEVER change the hearts of anyone…never. If me and other christians want to see people overcome and "live how the bible says and God made life to be" we have to first show them love and Christ…not judgment. We all sin, we all fall short…why homosexuality is so singled out is sad and doesnt help change a heart to God at all in my honest opinion.

    Let God love them and show them his way…thell make the choice they feel they need to from that. thats what i think

  • I don't see that same sex marriage will be the downfall of civilization or family unit morals, they have just as many morals as anyone else and they should also have rights same as anyone else. I have never seen God as angry only loving, but then I believe the bible was written to keep a lot of ancient heathens in line with fear. God loves homosexuals and lesbians the same as anyone and everything else after all they are a part of his energy also.

  • I don't see any problem with homosexuals marrying. If anything there are positives:
    reduction of population size, which is ever increasing and ever destroying bio-diversity, environment, etc. BTW, this is somewhat mean to be a joke…but is kinda true!
    more kids being adopted by good, moral citizens…which is a plus.
    A reason to be proud to be an American = more individual freedoms
    Probably more.
    Also, shouldn't christians ban Atheists from marrying? Is that not like the epitome of going against "god's" will?

    • honestly, and I know this sounds a little crude but it has passed through my mind, i would like to see it studied further.

      What if homosexuality is just an evolved gene? trying to help reduce population for the sake of saving the planet…some studies show that the earth can only perpetually support about 500,000,000 people, maybe all this overpopulation is causing some genetic mutations which is leading to a higher population of homosexuals…

      just a theory…hope it isn't insulting to anyone…im really just saying that Homosexuals may be a better evolution of man.

      • Well, I seriously doubt it is an "evolved gene" as you say because us humans basically side step limiting factors to population size with technology, industrialization, high buildings, medical practices, etc. So therefore, it is almost as if we are "devolving." I know that sounds weird, but we are going over our carrying capacity which will lead to our ultimate demise if you don't do stuff about it (ex. family planning).
        However, homosexuality can still be caused by a gene, but not ONE gene. People always say Homosexuality cannot be caused by a "gay Gene" blaha blah blah. But, there are more than one gene involved in say your personality and other attributes that make you yourself. These are called quantitative traits. (look it up!) homosexuality can be caused by these different genes as well. Please please read "genome" by Matt Ridley. It is not like a textbook on science! It reads look a short novel, seriously. There is a whole section on the genetics of homosexuality (ex. it was found that identical twins in raised in DIFFERENT environments had like a %70 chance of both growing up gay if one exhibited homosexuality. There is also more info on other genetic diseases and what causes them. This is a good read my friend and could help you in these "scientific discussions." 😉

        • Thanks , I will check out that book…ive got a reading list a mile long but it sounds interesting…I am certianly not well read on genetics…it's one of those fields where even folks with PhDs in the field only have about 10% of the whole picture…so vast and such.

          but i agree about us devolving….i just think that at some point our technological advances will fail us and we will have to revert back to letting nature take its course…maybe

  • I agree with Aimey and did even back when I was a Christian that thought homosexuality was a sin. State sanctioned marriage has to do with legal rights, it has nothing to do with the religious ceremony.

  • I know this is not the proper place to post this, but since we are talking about morality and freedom and rights….its kinda close.
    If X= good law abiding citizen + morality
    Y= good law abiding citizen + morality + a belief in salvation through Christ (god),
    Both x and y are the same person (don't kill, steal, etc.) except Y has a belief in christianity, nothing more, thats the ONLY thing that sets him apart…. Why on Earth does Y feel the need to convert X to Y? How does this benefit society? (don't say it benefits X by (insert afterlife stuff here))

  • 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    I have no hatred towards homosexuals but I will love them with the truth that they are living in a habitual sinful lifestyle before a Holy God and that they need to get out of that lifestyle because I care about their eternal salvation and I dont want to see them go to hell!

    God created man and woman for specific reasons, homosexuality is an unnatural act that defiles the body. God didn't make two men or two women because that is not natural. Gods Word says that sex of any kind outside the marriage union of one man and one woman is sexual sin and adultery. I stand by this completely and will not compromise Gods Word. and just to add it, liberal christianity is not true christianity at all.

    -Jason777

    • i don't think anyone is asking for Christians to be liberal, my point is that Christians and Muslims and Atheist and Homosexuals should all be willing to fight for one anothers rights instead of fighting to halt their freedom. Wrong or Right, there should be no federal or statewide ban on the legality of these unions…it isn't about liberal Christianity, it's about not being a douchebag because not everyone agrees with you and desiring that everyone CAN be free like you are….let people be free to sin…let people be free to hate god or whatever, let me be free to let GOD send me to hell.

    • So would you say that being mentally retarded is natural? Did god just not "make" these kinds of people, are they just pretending to be retarded? I don't think so. People cannot help that (well, most) they feel attraction towards the same sex. So then is this god's fault for allowing this to happen? I worked in a genetics lab studying mating behavior in fruit flies. Guess what, some flies exhibited homosexuality by being attracted to the same sex.

  • Kat

    Whether we agree or disagree on this topic, ALL our freedoms are slowly but surely being taken away from us and that includes the right to pray in school, the right to say Merry Christmas. If we all begin to fight for our so called rights, it won't be before long that a criminal demands his own rights. I love my friends and family. It doesn't mean they are always right, but I still love them. I am not perfect and make mistakes and yet people still love me. For those of us who "choose" to believe God's word, Jason is right. We can't hate people for pointing out GOD's word an truth. We all have a choice at the end of the day. This just happens to be YOUR opinion Matt but it doesn't mean you are right. Not all Christians where a holier than thou halo. There are those of us who are very real and down to earth people who choose to respect God's word. For those bashing anyone here who doesn't agree with being gay, Matt was the one posing the question and if some of us feel it's unnatural to accept a gay life style you can't force us to accept it anymore than we can force you to stop being who you are. And to answer your question Matt….. God makes the rules, not me. I just choose to follow Him.

    • Hey Kat,

      I disagree with you about prayer and christmas….no one has been kept from praying in school or saying Merry Christmas

      couple posts i did years ago on the subject, whilst still a christian btw:

      http://ragingrev.com/2008/08/17/to-macon-telegrap

      and
      http://ragingrev.com/2006/02/26/something-i-wrote

      I will agree with you that freedom is being assaulted from many fronts…but those two freedoms are not. part of that, at least in my experience. It's funny to me how many christians will cry about Christmas, a pagan holiday throughout(see my post above) but won't say word one when the Patriot Act is enacted before anyone even reads it.

  • Well, Brother Jason, you claim not to hate homosexuals, but I certainly don't feel any love coming from your post either.

    Thanks for the quote from your Book of Myths. I'll give it all the consideration it deserves. Guess how much that is…

    You mean that you'll display your ignorance of the issue and your ignorance-based intolerance to homosexuals. When Christians claim they are going to "love", watch out – the judgment and condemnation is coming! "Brother, I tell you this in love…" Yeah. Right.

    God is holy? Are you actually serious? Read your bible! Then explain to me how slaughtering thousands of folks throughout the Old Testament somehow magically equals the acts of a "holy" god. Read Acts 5. When was the last time you murdered someone simply for lying to you? If you did that, would it be OK? If it's not OK for you to kill someone for lying to you, then why would it somehow magically be OK for your god to do it? Is murdering folks for minor infractions (or for ANY reason) "holy"?

    There is no such place as hell. There isn't a shred of evidence that such a place actually exists. It is glaringly obvious that hell, like heaven, is a myth. People cannot go to mythical places, so stop worrying about it!

    There is no such thing as "salvation". "Saved" and "lost" are false distinctions made by a demonstrably false religion.

    God did not create man or woman. We are the products of millions of years of biological evolution, not the magical creations of an obviously mythical god.

    God's Word? Are you actually serious? Please explain to me how a collection of ancient religious mythology riddled with contradictions, absurdities, atrocities, myths, fables, and plenty of non-historical "history" can possibly qualify as the "word" of a god. Thanks.

    How can you possibly avoid compromising god's "word"? It's so contradictory that it is impossible to follow!

    What makes you special and somehow magically qualified to define for everyone for all time what does or does not qualify as "true" Christianity?

  • First, let me say that the vast majority of "christians" go WWAAAAAAYYYY OVERBOARD on the homosexual issue as the 1 Cor. reference by Jason points out – it is only one of the issues (sins) among many. For the "church" to raise a fist at homosexuality while tolerating adultery ( anyone who divorces and marries again is an adulterer) or drunkards (friday night drunks/Sunday morning Deacons (I've known a few) BTW the bible says they shouldn't be Deacons) is SOOO hypocritical! And the next part "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Gives you the answer why Christians should be reaching out and why some of us do reach out to homosexuals or other sinners of which we ALL are.) I absolutely believe that the best version of ourselves can only be found through a relationship with Christ. That may sound like a semantics difference, but for me it's the core of the issue. If I truly believe in Christ and who He claimed to be, then I should act like him (WWJD.) A careful reading of scripture shows me that he had absolutely nothing good to say about the established religious system of the time. He was accused of being a drunkard and a glutton and was also called a friend of tax gatherers (the worst of the worst) and sinners. I absolutely believe that if Jesus were walking the earth right now he would be accused of being homosexual because he would associate with them. What's more, many of them would find that they didn't need or want homosexual relationships anymore. And it would have nothing to do with guilt or blame but complete and total freedom to be the best they could ever be.

    I stated in another discussion that religion is a krok. My definition of religion is any set of guidelines that are strictly followed and form a belief system that has little or no tolerance for outsiders (anyone who does not believe the same as them.) With that definition as a guideline then homosexuality can be a religion as well. I remember hearing a homosexual activist tort "wouldn't it be great if anything said against homosexuality was illegal!" I'm sure he didn't really think about what he was saying. He couldn't have. That would mean he didn't want freedom of speech, which is the very right that allows him to be out-of-the-closet. The point is he had absolutely no interest in defending my rights as a Christian. In fact he wanted to take them away. Remember, I heard this with my own ears.

    This is getting way to long so here are my points in a nutshell:
    1) True Christianity has few accurate examples in our society.
    2) Homosexuals are not just innocent victims in this battle.

    • Pscott, thanks for your insight on this…

      I'm not gonna touch your thought that homosexuals can really be changed…we are very close to mapping the genome sequence that is prevalent on homosexuals and I would rather not debate the reformation of a mind in such a way…just know that at one point i thought the same thing…exorcism does not work for homosexuality, from experience

      as far as the person that wanted gay discrimination made illegal…i believe you…and I find it truly sad…but I also am sure that it hurts to be hated by society and god so one might say things that you don't mean…I can't know and you can't either as to how much this individual loves freedom, but surely there are bad apples in the bunch…just like in Christianity right?

      • pdscott

        Hey, sorry I've been away so long.

        As for the exorcism thing. What denomination were you involved with? I can't imagine anyone who really understood the gospel trying an exorcism on a homosexual. Homosexuality is not the result of some demon taking over! It is simply one of many sexually immoral acts no different than rape, adultery, lust or promiscuity. I know someone is going to take offense to that but scripture teaches to break even a small part of the law is to break the whole thing. God does not see a difference between "a little white lie" and murder.

        Next

        You are absolutely right! Christians (especially American christians) are the biggest obstacle to knowing Christ in the world today. Don't get me wrong – there are good Christians in America – but the majority of average christians spend too much time debating the ills of society and not enough time doing something about it (and I don't mean preaching about it.)
        And for the record – GOD DOES NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS! No mater what anyone else says.

        • My ministry was entirely private and unaffiliated…I was involved in a non-denominational church during most of the time that I was doing exorcisms though but only performed exorcisms 2 or 3 times whilst at the actual church….I came from a school of thought on the demonic that most any ailment or sinful nature could be construed or twisted by the demonic, that it would compound any issue that was already there…that school of thought also hammers home the idea that a demon of homosexuality would had to have been invited by some previous homosexual tendency or experience or traumatic event…i am not defending this school of thought and i realize the error of blaming everything or anything on the demonic.

          and we don't agree on your description of most christians…Christians were my major frustration whilst still in the faith.

    • Azu

      Honestly, folks can already make the case that Jesus was gay using the book that gives them an excuse for their own homosexual bigotry.

      Mark: 14:51-52
      John: 13:23, 13:25, 19:26, 21:20

      Given that the Bible is open to interpretation by most Christians, I choose to interpret that the Bible gives proof that Jesus was gay.

      Straight men just don't hang out with scantily clad boys while they cuddle them on their bosoms.

      Plus, the language to insinuate sex or sexual relationships in the Bible is also used in these verses.

      One could reason that being gay is OK if they believe in Jesus.

      WWJD?

      Party at a gay club…for sure!

  • "I absolutely believe that if Jesus were walking the earth right now he would be accused of being homosexual because he would associate with them."

    when you say this, it is dangerous, because when Jesus ate with sinners, he did not associate with them in the sense that he actually participated in what they were doing, that would be against His nature as perfect and sinless (God in flesh). Here was His message to all audiences in general before he started speaking in parables: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (from Matthew 4). Jesus was not on earth to "get along with everybody" but to call men to repentance and faith and belief in Him. "believing" in Jesus in Gods Word means not just to know the truth, but to actually apply and practice the truth. Its like a chair. You know and acknowledge a chair sitting next to you and you know it will hold you up when you sit in it, but you don't actually believe until you sit down in the chair and experience it.

    Gods Word is solid objective truth and Jesus said in order to follow Him we must deny ourselves and take up our crosses (a picture of suffering persecution) daily. God is love to those who trust Him and make a practice of habitual righteousness, but His wrath abides on those who deny Him and continue in their sin. not just homosexuality, but all sexual sin and sin in general will be punished by God on the day of judgment when Christ returns. Only those in Christ who are called apart and covered in His blood will be declared righteous in Gods eyes. The rest He will say "depart from me, for I never knew you" (Matthew 7) and toss them into the lake of fire. please people, dont take your sins against a Holy God lightly! confess your sins in prayer and turn from your sinful lifestyles, trust in Christ alone as your Lord and savior, and obey His commands in His Word, and find a group of fellow believers to fellowship with and be encouraged by!

    -Jason777

  • Jason, if you wanna see a person change those heart to god than show them the love of god and his salvation. Let god deal with their choices and he will lead the
    . you’ll never win anyone to Christ by holding up anti gay and turn or burn signs

  • Here is what is not fair. People can do anything in this life and eventually get away with it through "salvation." "Oh, I have been saved. I repented my evil ways,…" So they get to go to heaven now. But, theoretically couldn't they just keep doing "evil" things, like killing, and keep repenting to get away with it through "god's" eyes? Is not forgiveness the operative word here in christianity? (which, btw, sucks that we always have to talk about christianity, like it is all that even matters. Its like someone talking about Tom Sawyer and your like what? don't you mean Huckelberry Finn, Tom Sayer will get you nowhere man….here read this.) I say it is not fair because, this religion looks so appealing to criminals in jail when they have no time to anything else but listen to how "yea, you ruined your life, but you can still have eternal happiness in the kingdom of heaven…" That shit sounds good to a criminal. It simply perpetuates the problem for us aligned with reason….sad

    • BigDaveyB

      Please read Romans 6

  • TMinut

    People CAN'T just do anything in this life and get away with it through "salvation". Even salvation being real doesn't mean someone cries, says I'm so sorry I've done terrible (or not so terrible) things and I accept Jesus, and then they're safe forever to do whatever they want. A 1/2 hour or an hour of emotionalism is not what it's about though that seems to be the message so often. If you don't know a difference around a christian, it's not the kind of christianity it's supposed to be and I totally agree that it's rare.

    My post way at the top was about everyone claiming rights to every freedom possible, matt said it has nothing to do with the subject but it does. Where do our "rights" begin and end? I was pointing out that almost everyone claims to have rights that shouldn't be limited but that other rights have reasons NOT to be allowed at all. Many say their pet peeve "rights" don't hurt anyone and it's all their own business – not all consequences are immediately obvious. Do we really believe anarchy works for a society?
    I think homosexuality is an aberration (I'd think the same of someone who tried to eat with their ears..) but marriage has to do with the couple and God, not the government. I'm not sure it's even right to have the government involved; if it's all civil rights and about economic benefits, who cares what "marriages" are sanctioned by the government? I realize it's all a bit more complicated than that but people have always been rather weird.

  • Jen

    I discuss this issue on my kids of queers blog a lot. I still don't get what the problem is. Of course I am not religious so I don't hold any of the bible thumper's views that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pleased to see that people can marry who they want and not be denied the same rights that straight people have. I do not understand how it devalues marriage. I've been married twice, and divorced twice and I am straight. I don't see how couples of the same sex could devalue marriage anymore than it already has been.

  • If homosexuality is 'unnatural' then please explain to me why rams (male sheep) frequently engage in homosexuality?

    Brucella is an STD of sheep which will spread through a ram flock even when no ewes are present. Homosexuality occurs in 'nature' too.

    Andy while I am for gay marriage, I'd like to see more male teachers in primary schools. Kids should have positive role models of both sexes to look up to.

    • I agree with everything you said there, when i was in debate in High School one of the arguments we often ran was the Penguin Case…it tied into a lot of things, but it gives evidence of homosexuality occuring both in nature and captivity among penguins, dolphins, and other animals.

      it was fun to run because we were the only school with it and it made people go WHAAAA

      I too think kids need more male role models btw…i just can't handle kids at all

  • Above all else, the golden rule. I try to treat people how I want to be treated myself. I don't understand how you can be "religious" and yet treat others so poorly.

  • Yea, good point. I worked in a genetics lab and found homosexual behavior (males that prefer only males) in Fruit Flies….go figure.

  • john

    "They have not done enough to fight for their rights"

    really? we are fighting for our rights everyday. The problem is not the gay community fighting, its the 'live like or us or die in hell' people that are fighting back constantly. How much more can we do. Even the black community fights us.

    as for a black president, who do you think also voted for a black president. Most LGBt folks dont vote repulican. In case you didnt know this.

    Your black president, and mine, is having Lesbian and gay families partake in the egg hunting on Easter. This is one of the reasons we hoped would happen when we voted for him.

    Yes, we fight, we also fought for barrack.

    • I don't disagree with you at all…the problem is the ignorant…but some blame has got to be put on those that are not willing to step out of the closet and fight next to you…I know it has to be scary, coming out of the Atheist closet is quite scary as well ( I live in the deep South)…but it should be done to further the cause of those that suffer with you….

      the fact remains that not all fight, not all are united and that is a problem…minuscule compared to the problem of racism, ignorance, and predjudice…but a problem all the same

  • john

    onto gay adoption.____My partner and I adopted two special needs kids from DSS. Where do you think kids from the system come home. It was Straight folks who abused and neglected them. ____Can one of you so called christians, and look in the eyes of my children and tell them their fathers are sinners and are going to hell.____you people are down right cruel!!!!!!!! We would not have adopted them if the 'straight community' stepped up and adopted them. But alot of straight folks want the perfect little adoptive baby. I can go on and on about this. But if your a real christian, go into a group home for kids with 'issues' and allow them in your home. Go work with the homeless everyday then just sitting in your churches judging everyone____do NOT judge me until you have actually adopted a child with issues. Just give it a rest and grow up. We are not hurting anyone, you are just plan cruel. ____Oh, IM a social worker. I have dedicated my life on helping people that are less fortunate then me. We will see who ends up in hell. Instead of pointing fingers, go out and do some real Gods work. gesshhhhhh.____thanks rev…that felt good..lol

    • glad you could get that out of your system, you deserve it.

  • john

    as for unnatural.

    a friend of mine brought his two 'male dogs' over with his kids. The male dogs kept humping each other.

    And for me to be in a relationship with a woman would be very unnatural for me. Since when does one decide what is natural?

    • BigDaveyB

      Sorry John but when one male dog humps another male dog it is a sign of dominance, not homosexuality.

      • Matt

        There are still countless examples of homosexuality occurring in nature.

  • gee I wish I could get discussion going like this on MY blog…you got a wildfire here Rev!

  • But if we allow gay marriage, won't that force heterosexuals to get married to gays, just like allowing interracial marriage forced white people to marry blacks? And won't my church be forced to perform gay weddings just like they are forced to perform Jewish weddings? And won't children in elementary school be forced to learn about gay sex just like they are forced now to learn about heterosexual sex?

  • Ray Biggerstaff

    *sorry for the blank comment, dont know how to edit it*

    Here is my opinions as a Christian:

    1. It does not harm me is gay people get married. Not at all. If the government legalizes it, it wont directly affect me. I think Christians need to stop complaining about these issues that they may disagree with and start focusing on living the life they say they believe in. After all, there are more important thing in life, like real injustices in the world: poverty, slums, hundreds of thousands who are literally dying from lack of food or medical care. Orphans, children forced into slavery of some kind, and so on.

    2. I see something wrong with a child NOT having a mother and a father. (yes, man and women) But this does not mean gay people should be denied rights to adopt. The definition of a bad parent has nothing to do with weather they are gay or not.

    3. My wife's cousin lives in Iowa, and he is gay, and he will be getting married. This has cause us to discuss our personal values on the issue, but certainly does not make us 'hate' him or anything. He is a nice guy. My wife's cousin, and our friend.

  • Marriage has always been a religious institution. Only when the government realized that they could tax someone for it did they get involved. Homosexuals actualy have MORE rights than straight couples do. They can have a civil union for way less money and with way less paper work then a straight couple who wants a civil union. And it gives them all the same rights a married couple has. But it's not called marriage because that is not the definition of the word marriage. That's right, words have meaning and it's not okay to change the meaning of words simply to make someone "feel" better. To those types, I say "grow up and realize there are bigger issues in the world then how YOU feel"

    • 1: What is the definition of marriage?

      2: What states allow civil unions?

      3:Of those states what rights to civil unions have, what do marriages have?

  • Also, I get extremely upset when the voice of the people is not heard. In California, the people have voted 3 different times to ban changing the very meaning of what marriage is supposed to be and it seems like because certain people don't like the outcome of the vote, the people's voice just doesn't matter.
    There is not a single thing a straight person can do that a homosexual can't. Just because you are not a Christian doens't give you the right to tell Christians what to do.
    Whooo boy this topic gets me mad! But thanks, I'm done now. 🙂

    • 1: Should freedom be a voting issue?

      2: If everyone voted to go around clubbing baby seals, would that make it right or constitutional?

      3: Who is telling Christians what to do?

  • #1
    Taken from Dictionary.com:
    "the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc."

    It's just the first one I found and it makes perfect sense to me. Hmmmm, notice the words man, woman and religious?

  • #2
    Taken from Wikipedia, if you want me to search elsewhere I can, but info is info and facts are facts.

    "The first civil unions in the United States were offered by the state of Vermont in 2000. The federal government does not recognize these unions, and under the U.S. Defense of Marriage Act of 1996 (DOMA), other U.S. states are not obliged to recognize them. By the end of 2006, Connecticut and New Jersey had also enacted civil union laws; New Hampshire followed in 2007. Furthermore, California's domestic partnership law had been expanded to the point that it became practically a civil union law, as well. The same might be said from 2007 for domestic partnership in Maine, domestic partnerships in District of Columbia, domestic partnership in Washington, and domestic partnership in Oregon."

  • #3
    Way too much info for here. However it strays from my point of the definition of marriage. If a civil union doesn't provide the right to do a particular something then change the law of civil union, not the meaning of the word marriage.

    The one thing I found was about filing for taxes is a little different. I'd definitly vote to make it so they're the same. But then again, I''d rather vote for a flat sales tax and do away with income taxes all together. Show me a signifiicant difference and you'll have shown me a cause that should be taken up in the pro gay community 🙂

  • Jen

    There are many arguments you can make for legalizing same-sex marriage, but the most solid one I can think of is that marriage, in this country, is first and foremost a LEGAL institution. Meaning, you can't just have a religious ceremony and call yourself married, you must obtain a marriage license. Therefore, because marriage is a legal institution in this country, we are discriminating against same-sex couples who wish to marry but are not allowed. This is a direct violation of the Constitution.

    I think many religious people are against same-sex marriage because it disrupts their idea of the perfect family unit. To them, same-sex couples who have kids are depriving their children of either a mother or a father. But they fail to realize that they can't just force their opinions on the entire population. We are all free to raise our children as we wish.

  • Azu

    I find it fascinating just how many things the Bible says are wrong/sins, but are still perfectly legal. I find it even more fascinating that gay marriage is the token issue for religious people. If religious people want to fight for making things that aren't approved by god, they should fight to make divorce, adultery, drunkenness, pride, coveting, etc. illegal. Since they don't, it's obvious that they are just using religion as an excuse for their own bigotry. They are leveraging their god to oppress others. If that's not a sin, than nothing is. The only things that are considered sins in the Bible that are illegal are murder, perjury, and stealing. That's it! If religious people are going to fight to combine church and state, they should fight for everything. If they don't, it weakens their argument by living up to the fact that they're bigots and hypocrites.

  • Scott

    Who gives a hoot about gay rights? We are on the verge of destroying mankind with nuclear war. If you want to be a homosexual,be a homosexual. You can't politic hate away. African Americans have had "equal" rights for decades and we still hear about so called racial issues that are completely uncalled for. I'm not turning this into a race post but there always has to be some controversy somewhere. Controversy creates cash on EVERY agenda. Gay marriage wasn't even that big of an issue until the last 10 years or so. Let's worry about overseas affairs,war,diseases, and poverty. Then we can for a compromise on gay marriage. It's not an issue.

    • I give a hoot. Nuclear war or not civil rights are important. Some folks would rather be alive and enslaved but for me life holds no value if there is no freedom. My gay friends deserve the same rights that I do even in a nuclear winter.

      I understand that there will likely always be bigotry – growing up in the south is all the evidence one needs for that. But when the government – State or federal- legislates it, I have a bigger problem with it. The gay marriage debate has been going on much longer than 10 years though, just without the media attention.

      On issues of foreign affairs and war – my school of thought is that leaving sovereign nations the fuck alone is the fastest road to peace. There was no Al-Queda prior to US involvement in the affairs of the middle east.

      Disease and poverty do not have to take a backseat to issues of civil rights.

      Thanks again, for your comment

  • It is so ridiculous. Marriage the word is the problem, not marriage the idea. Coupling as a concept is a natural thing, but tried to systematize and name. After that, people believe the system is the right way. Here's an idea. Completely remove religious jargon from government use. "Marriage" is abolished in the secular realm and is replaced with something less ridiculously corrupted and meaningless in a society where the primary form of entertainment is for couples to fight over everything on TV. Removing marriage from legal terminology can only strengthen both sides positions in the way that they SHOULD matter to them and here is why.

    1: The divorce rate in this country is so laughably high that the average marriage lasts less than 8 years. Religious leaders continually seem to decry this. Now, in many cultures if a religious leader objected to the wedding, it was not performed. Also, many cultures had to have divorces approved by a religious leader, and boredom wasn't an excuse. If marriage was removed from secular systems of mind control, this could be the case again. People could still go down to the courthouse and have a paper that says "Civil Union" made out, or find another church. I wouldn't even mind if college educated(Some graduate work at least) ministers and the like were allowed to file the paperwork and save some time. It's just no longer marriage to anyone but the churches.
    Why Not: Maybe I'm paranoid, but I think it is because of the power. The entrenchment of religion in government gives religion certain privileges that other organizations do not. They take kids before they know any better and tell them that the world is 5000 years old, we're all each others cousins, and that god can speak to you through a burning bush. These children are generally just taken along and not offered a choice. I'm speaking of far right Christians here, because they are the ringleaders in the U.S. If I were Iranian(And braver than I think I am) I'd talk about Islam. Once you get people believing in Dinosaurs +Cavemen, you can probably make them do anything you want. Cuius testiculos habet, cardia et cerebellum habeat. God speaks to you through a burning bush? Yeah, if god is a bag of M&M's. Why aren't they trying to legalize reefer instead of being bigots?

    2: Homosexuals would not only have the same rights as heterosexuals(And transgendered homosexuals in Ohio), but would have been responsible for the first real progress in finally realizing the establishment clause.
    Why Not: Actually, I can't think of a reason. I mean, other than feeling insulted and cheated, but dwelling on hurt feelings can't get anything done.