Psalm 14: Godless Bunch of Fools

the Fool- ThothPsalm 14 says:

1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.5There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad

The Psalmist David asserts here that the godless individual is immoral…that without God the only possible product of our selves is corruption and greed. If this were true I would assume that the religions associated with the Old Testament would never be seen with such scandal, yet they are often the most corrupt of people…of course I hate to use straw men so I won’t use the obvious lack of proof here or the fact that religion does not always equal morality…we’ve been over that before anyway. What I will do is use this passage as a study in why the Christian mindset is so often that people ouside of their own religious circle are all a bunch of filthy evil-doers.

As subjective as morality is, I have stated before that it is none the less basically the same for most of humanity…don’t kill anyone unless you are protecting yourself, don’t steal, be nice to people  (unless of course they are not nice to you)…these things are fairly  universal, religious and non-religious alike…the details ebb and flow but those basics are not changing too much (although folks are getting better at adding stipulations and requirements…you know, its OK to kill someone if they MIGHT be a member of al-Qaida). So the statement that the godless are corrupt is absolutely ridiculous, Atheists hold the same or a higher standard of morality than most, give or take a few bad apples. I know it’s the same with Christianity and Islam…despite the violence advocated in both the Bible and the Qu’ran.

My point here is that Psalms 14, in making the claim that goodness depends on ones belief in god, is evidence enough for me that the Bible promotes closed minded assumption based on ones understanding of an ancient text rather than an experienced based understanding of your fellow man. Psalms 14 is God’s personal statement of disgust with the humanity he created, wherein he builds a strawman and procedes to burn him down with hate and anger.

It is also claimed that we godless men and women are foolish for our claim against God’s existence. Yet it is we that fight against the simplicity of assumption and fear- which is often the catalyst for “faith” rather than experience as well. Not that experience makes something real or concrete…God wouldn’t make belief so simple as providing proof for the skeptic—which only solidifies our ability to deny him. If fools there be, it ain’t we.

  • Most cults that I’ve read about use the same technique. Outsiders are bad, they can’t be trusted and you certainly don’t want to become one.

  • Matt…
    Matt…
    Matt…

    I thought you knew better? Only the Holy Spirit can counsel an exegesis of the Scriptures! LOL

    Yours is miles off, your not even close Academically. You should leave the interpretation of the Scriptures to those that have the Holy Spirit to interpret them, for them…

    Just so you know, here is a hint. David is not talking about the “unbeliever”, He is talking about mankind itself, and the people of Israel in particular. LOL

    You should stick to a more Dawkinesque mindset, and stick to “No Supernatural”, it fits you better. 🙂

    Why do you think folks go through the post secondary religious education process? There is an entire core of History, Anthropology, Archeology, and other lines of knowledge that help quite a bit when exegeting to the layman. 🙂

  • Because God, apparently, couldn’t speak to the common man.

    Funny thing about the Holy Spirit, he gives one interpretation to one group and a completely different interpretation to another.

  • Kat

    Matt, I have to disagree with you that Christians believe that everyone outside their circle are evil doers. I’m embarrassed to think that these are the kinds of Christians who have been in your circle but the Christians and non-Christians in my circles wouldn’t think that of anyone. If anything they wouldn’t judge you for what you believe and would respect you as a person. If you were to ask them what they think or believe then they would tell you, but never with a holier than thou attitude.

    You should know better than to put people in a box.

    You also can’t say that atheists have the same or higher level of morality. You are passing judgment.

  • Kat, as an atheist who has been treated like an evil doer by Christians I can tell you that many Christians do believe that. Yes not all do, but quite a few do.

    People are people. I know atheists who live much more moral lives than proclaiming Christians, and vice versa.

    His point is that we can be and are moral, despite what most people think.

  • Matt

    Kat:

    I’m simply relegating the same thought brought forth by your holy book “They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good”. If you don’t believe that then you don’t believe the Bible…I didn’t create the box and put you in it, you calling yourself a Christian did…

    and I know not all Christians think that way!

    As far as judgement goes…I think I have every right to judge anyone that thinks they have the right to judge me.

  • Here are my 2 cents. 1) This isn’t saying that “atheists do no good” rather that “apart from God, being good is completely pointless” or something to that effect. It’s like that article I sent you on the 3 kinds of righteousness. Even for Christians, being good isn’t really the point. It’s about faith and trust in Christ’s all atoning sacrifice for sins. Christians and non-Christians alike all do “good” for different reasons, but in the end none of that really matters. The point is that, as I believe Guy was alluding to, ALL man is depraved and none of us are capable of the perfection that God demands. Hence the need for Christ. And like Kat, I’m saddened too by those who take the holier than thou attitude in the name of Christ as if being “better” makes any difference in the eyes of God. But, I’m no less a sinner than they are. Oh, and anyone who seriously thinks that atheists can’t do anything good is totally misguided. I’ll go out on a limb here and say I could probably find 10 atheists who are more altruistic and moral than I am. But again, that’s really beside the point. If we could earn God’s favor by being good, then there was no need for Christ.

    2) Since when is it a “fairly universal” truth that you shouldn’t be nice to others if they’re not nice to you? How is that the higher ground? How is that beneficial to society? Do harm unto others as they have done unto you – is that it? Sorry, but that’s just stupid.

    3) You’ve accused me of simply interpreting the Bible in such a way that “makes it work” because it “has to.” Yet you continually keep twisting the Bible in an attempt to prove your point, i.e. making it work for your particular agenda and then throw up your hands and say “it’s not me, it’s right there in black and white” hoping that you’ll lure in a few of the ignorant with your lies. You should know better from your days as a Christian that you just don’t pick things out of context to make them say what you want. Really, that goes for any reading – it’s not a principal exclusive to the Bible. To be honest, more than being angry or even frustrated, I’m just disappointed that you’re resorting to these intellectually dishonest methods because you’ve got such a chip on your shoulder against God.

  • Rev Russ said “You’ve accused me of simply interpreting the Bible in such a way that “makes it work” because it “has to.” Yet you continually keep twisting the Bible in an attempt to prove your point, i.e. making it work for your particular agenda and then throw up your hands and say “it’s not me, it’s right there in black and white” hoping that you’ll lure in a few of the ignorant with your lies.”

    Rev Russ also said “1) This isn’t saying that “atheists do no good” rather that “apart from God, being good is completely pointless” or something to that effect.”

    And the Bible said “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

    Your interpretation is pretty tame compared to what the text actually says and your attack of Matt is pretty harsh. Calling him a liar?

    Admittedly, Heresy Today is correct unlike every Christian I’ve ever discussed this verse with both when I was a believer and now that I’m not. This verse has nothing to do with non-Israelites. Despite that, I have never ever heard it applied to believers as it should be, but rather it is used to condemn atheists.

    Rev Russ said “Do harm unto others as they have done unto you – is that it? Sorry, but that’s just stupid.”

    Yes, except there is a vast difference between not returning a punch with a smile and raising your arm and defending yourself. Matt never said “Do harm unto others as they have done unto you”

  • Mike, I just wanted to quickly respond to your comment re: calling me out for accusing Matt of being a liar. Matt, I am sorry. I know that you genuinely believe what you are stating here and for me to imply you are intentionally lying is dishonest. So my sincerest apologies.

    What I was going for was more the Romans 1 route that you have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and that I believe what you are stating here is a lie. Admittedly I was frustrated and I focused on you, Matt, rather than what you were saying. Anyway, Mike, (and just for the record, no sarcasm here) thank you for calling me to the carpet on that. I just wanted to get that out there and I have more thoughts on your other comments I’ll add later.

  • 1) Mike, I’m sensing a bit of contradiction in your statement regarding the meaning of Psalm 14 so I just want to make sure I’m hearing you correctly. First you said, “Your interpretation is pretty tame compared to what the text actually says,” from which I infer you mean that what the text actually says is that God is bashing atheists and they are completely immoral. But later you said, “This verse has nothing to do with non-Israelites. Despite that, I have never ever heard it applied to believers as it should be, but rather it is used to condemn atheists.” What am I missing because it seems like you’re saying two different things here? That ultimately, you recognize this text, in fact, is not speaking about condemning atheists because of their lack of good. And really, again, that’s the point here and why talking about “who’s more moral” is really pointless. Paul quotes a section of this Psalm in Romans 3 – and this is really the point I was trying to get at – that none of us is good enough for God’s standard of perfection. So even for me to claim (which I’m not) that I’m a better person than an atheist means NOTHING apart from Christ. It is by faith in Him alone that I have salvation. Sure, I try to be good, but that’s not what gets me into heaven. As far as the fool part, David is simply pointing out, as does Paul in 1 Corinthians 1, that rejecting God’s salvation for the “wisdom” of man is utter foolishness. To reject the gift of forgiveness and eternal life in Christ is folly. That being said, I’m sorry that Christians misuse this verse to “condemn” atheists based on works. None of us – even Christians – can ever do enough works. What’s condemning for atheists about this verse is that apart from faith in God, there is no hope for eternal life.

    2) You said, “Yes, except there is a vast difference between not returning a punch with a smile and raising your arm and defending yourself. Matt never said ‘Do harm unto others as they have done unto you’”. You’re right, but Matt did say “be nice to people (unless of course they are not nice to you)” so I really don’t think my interpretation is too much of a stretch. Matt isn’t simply talking about self-defense there – he’s saying it’s okay for us to be jerks to others when they are jerks to us. And Matt, if that’s not what you meant, I suggest you make that statement a lot clearer. It sounds to me like you’re saying If someone flips me off in traffic, I should go ahead and flip them off back. If someone calls me a name or mocks me, I should go ahead and mock them back. Really, what it sounds like to me is the school yard mentality “Timmy, why did you hit Billy?” “Because he hit me first.” “Oh, okay then – on your way.” Surely that’s not really what you’re trying to promote, is it Matt? Even if it doesn’t resort to physical retaliation, how is better for society to return unkindness with unkindness? Wouldn’t it be far more powerful to return unkindness with kindness? In other words, wouldn’t it be far better to be nicer to someone who isn’t nice to you? Wow, what would that look like!

  • Thanks Rev Russ,

    Question: Do you feel it is possible to unknowingly exchange the truth of God for a lie? I never wanted to be an atheist. Up to my very last day as a Christian I was pretty much begging God to give me something to give me faith again. Am I in some really long “dark night of the soul”?

  • Rev Russ,

    You said “Mike, I’m sensing a bit of contradiction in your statement regarding the meaning of Psalm 14 so I just want to make sure I’m hearing you correctly.”

    Let me be clearer, this passage, as I understand it, is not about non-Israelites. Regardless of the target audience I was saying that your interpretation was much weaker than the actual text would lead one to believe. I do not read it as saying good done outside the will of God is pointless. It’s saying that all these actions are evil. “there is none that doeth good”

    I fully believe in the law of reciprocity, as worded by Jesus. I completely believe that it’s much easier to get along with people if you treat them the way you want to be treated. Do most people live that way? Sometimes, yes, sometimes no. In the weeks and months following 9/11 I think more people did. I would say that the law of reciprocity is taking the higher ground, but it would not usually be our first instinct.

    I really don’t think Matt is making an argument to return unkindness with unkindness. He’s simply saying that it’s not unacceptable to do that in some instances. I could be wrong, wouldn’t be the first time. 😉

    • Reposting, comment was lost:

      @Mike and RevRuss: I have been watching your dialog uninvolved for a while, its pretty interesting…let me be more clear as to my stance on reciprocity. There are two basic schools of thought on reciprocity that i follow, usually according to the situation. One comes from Wicca…though im not wiccan this makes sense to me: "An it harm ye none, do what thou wilt" . it isn't the golden rule fully, but it follows that pattern…do whatever the hell you want in life, just don't hurt anyone else in the process… Secondarily there are situations where I find it necessary to follow these few of the 9 Satanic Statements as written by Anton LaVey (an atheist satanist) which are: 4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! 5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek! 6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires! As much as i hate the coldness of this ideology…at times I think it may be necessary…and I can't think of any group of people that have more embraced this ideology than warmongering republican Christians…to be honest procede

  • @Mike – thanks for your civil tone in your comments and questions. I hope we didn’t get off on the wrong foot. It’s these kinds of reasonable discussions I appreciate. Admittedly I get passionate about my beliefs and as you have seen (and Matt can certainly attest to), I do get frustrated now and then when getting in these conversations but overall they are beneficial and educational for me. At any rate, you asked: “Do you feel it is possible to unknowingly exchange the truth of God for a lie? I never wanted to be an atheist. Up to my very last day as a Christian I was pretty much begging God to give me something to give me faith again. Am I in some really long ‘dark night of the soul’?”

    That’s a good question. I don’t know that I’d say one can unknowingly exchange the truth of God for a lie, unknowingly being the operative word there. I believe that you, and others like you (Matt included) have been convinced by 1) your own sinful nature and 2) the lies of the enemy (Satan), that God’s truth is NOT the truth and have therefore bought into the lie. In other words, what God’s Word says hasn’t changed, you’ve just been convinced that it means something other than what it does. Namely, you’ve been convinced that God in fact does not exist, that if He did He does not love us, and that He does not offer salvation and eternal life for all who believe in Him. You’ve been convinced that this truth does not apply to you (or perhaps anyone for that matter). I have no doubt you didn’t wake up one day thinking “I’m going to reject God today” but that slowly, over time the lies seeped in and you accepted them as truth instead of God’s truth. I’m not sure if that adequately answers your question or not, but I hope it makes some sense.

    As for the “long, dark night of the soul” – if you’re asking whether or not I think “once saved, always saved” my answer is absolutely not. If that were true, I don’t know why Jesus, Peter, Paul and others would have spent so much time encouraging people in their faith and warning them of the dangers of falling away (cf. 2 Peter 2:20-22, 1 Corinthians 10:12, etc.). It doesn’t mean they can’t come back to faith, but it’s a somber warning. I believe there is still hope for you, Matt, and all others because I know that God desires that none should perish but all should have eternal life (2 Peter 3:8-9, 2 Timothy 2:1-6). But I can’t force that belief on anyone, nor will God Himself force it on you. You don’t choose to believe, but you can choose to reject. Paradoxical, yes – but I believe that’s being true to God’s Word (and incidentally why I appreciate Lutheran theology because it allows for the tension of those paradoxes rather than trying to resolve them by erring on one side or the other).

    Finally, again regarding the interpretation of Psalm 14 – the audience is somewhat irrelevant in that again, our works before God are but filthy rags so it is not by them that we are saved but by the blood of Jesus Christ – the perfect, innocent victim – who died in our place. If it were about good works – I’d be in a lot of trouble and again, there may be plenty of atheists out there (yourself included) who’d be in much better shape than me!

  • Just skimmed Rev Russ’ suggested Can War be Just article., and still feel war is pure insanity.

    How can anyone ever see killing and destruction as just? Most people feel self-defense makes it so. But I feel a lot of our modern justification of the insanity of war is rooted in the misinterpretation of Christ’s crucifixion being a sacrifice, which demanded the most extreme pain and suffering, to pay a price for the wrongdoing of humans. So the understanding that God sent his son to be outrageously tortured and killed for the benefit of mankind goes a long way to set the table for all cockamamie excuses that the outrageous insanity of war somehow serves a just cause.

    Why did Jesus not preempt His crucifixion in self-defense? Because He wanted/needed to save the human race from going to war and other sins (suffering) by demonstrating that humans do not have to suffer under any circumstances. By rising from the dead, He demonstrated humans have absolute Freedom from suffering; and His public life before crucifixion demonstrated that a happy healthy human heart has the Freedom to do anything like walk on water or part the Red Sea.

    What the hell is Matt’s post about any way? I better go look agian! Oh, he is questioning the Christian dogma that the godless soul is immoral. I would revise that, without any reference to Biblical bs and say the heartless soul is immoral. If one has a happy healthy heart one has sound, sane morality, and complete Freedom to do as he or she needs and wants.

  • Dhan,

    Thanks for the reply…and hey..next time you comment read the post first…geesh

  • I did read your post first and most of the comments as well. Then reading Rev Russ' suggested article took quite a long time as I am a slow reader. And my comment on war is bouncing off Rev Russ as well as you regarding war mongering republicans. I just had to go back and refresh my memory on the main point of your deeply thoughtful post.

  • I was just picking with you anyway…Rev Russ is a big fan of walls of text…which reminds me, i need to read that article you are talking about anyway!

  • The Holy Spirit argument is one of convenience… I just cannot appreciate something that allows you to shut out any onlookers because they don't meet the qualifications of believing something to be undeniable Truth.

    I can't imagine any way for this passage to relate to Mankind Itself rather than unbelievers…It is far too clear for that. If you can prove that this is what it is about then I invite you to educate those of us that are not "led by the spirit" on just what sorts of things can make our exegesis more accurate.

    I think folks go through post-secondary education in order to solidify their flawed understanding of flawed religious concepts. They go to have someone prove to them things that are not true with bad science and inaccurate history…They endure extra-education for the sake of ignoring real History, Anthropology, Archeology and anything else that doesn't synchronize with their solitary "Truth".

    Thats just an opinion though, and I can no more prove that than you can prove who David was addressing (he was addressing God btw…its a Psalm)

  • I know you don't mean it, but really you do…as Ray Comfort puts it, we are all no good liars if we ever tell a lie…so essentially all of us are liars…But i understand that you aren't trying to be a jerk and call me a Liar above all Liars or anything like that, but the tone wasn't the best one to use for the interweb…either way, you know I know what you mean and appreciate to an extent what you are trying to say.

    i also appreciate Mike for calling you out on it though, because of the harshness with which you presented it. I know we, myself especially, can be a frustrating bunch

    • You are correct – my tone was uncalled for, hence my apology. I too appreciated not only the fact that Mike called me out on it but the manner (gently and respectfully) in which he did it.

      I guess what frustrates me most is that you used to believe this and understand it, but now that you're an atheist it's all inconceivable. I guess what I'm saying is in a way I understand it, but in a way I don't. I believe it's connected to what Paul's talking about when he says no one can say "Jesus is Lord" (and actually mean it) without the Holy Spirit.

  • I'm not sure I'm hearing you right here, so correct me if I'm wrong. I certainly agree that after so much garbage, I too get fed up. But are you suggesting that simply because we get fed up we can seek vengeance? That instead of just walking away, we should punch the kid on the playground because he poked us one too many times and said "whatcha gonna do about it?" I'll try to be as clear as I can – would I want to punch the kid? Sure. Might I even do it in a moment of anger? Perhaps. But does that make it right? Absolutely not.

    • sorry russ, see my below replies, i deleted the previous comment due to an error that only put the first few words in it.

    • and for that little bastard that keeps hitting you, if he learns his lessson…hell yes it is right…you've done him a favor and the rest of society a favor

      • Oh, I'm not saying he shouldn't get punished for being a turd – but that's the teacher and or principal's job, not mine. I'm just saying vigilante justice (which is what I was trying to illustrate) is extremely dangerous.

  • On to the Satanic Statements

    4:Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

    You said that this statement is obviously a satanic one as it is contrary to christ…good new is, that was the whole reason it was created. I am not just trying to be antagonistic to christ like LaVey was, but I think the statement makes sense…It isn't saying you must NOT be kind to the undeserving, but don't feel obligated to…maybe I have a better hold on an exegesis of something like this huh? (wonder what spirit i might have then?).

    I just don't think that if someone is rude to me or unkind that I necessarily have to turn the other cheek, I have the option of returning to that person with kindness, perhaps changing the situation, OR I can simply humiliate that individual…I think you know which one of those things I normally do and prefer, but the option is mighty nice to have.

    5. Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!

    Same philosophy as 4 really. Options…no more of this letting people smack you around without the fear of certain retributions.

    6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!

    If someone is a Psychic Vampire then you shouldn't waste your time, attention, affection of feel any responsibility for them…a psychic vampire is a person who doesn't contribute to society, whom relies on the hard work of others to get them further in life….this can be monetarily speaking, spiritually speaking, emotionally speaking…however you choose…people that suck the life from others are not people that deserve the best of what you have to offer. For me this isn't some statement against welfare (I certainly don't have a problem with that) but against individuals whom are just intentionally worthless.

    as far as Warmongering Republican Christians… I am simply referring to the Christian Republicans who were so wild to pursue the two wars that are occurring now without any justification whatsoever…if the Bible is to be trusted, God's people should be the ones with the level heads that want to figure out the cause of whatever bone of contention that may be present between two forces, yet we rarely see that…in my experience Christians OFTEN (not always, im not making a blanket statement here, at least not intentionally) neglect the facts and rush into situations…and embody the 9 Satanic Statements better than most Satanists.

  • As a frequent reader of the Ragin Rev, I have stayed out of the mire of debate in the comments for many reasons. Perhaps the biggest reason is revealed in this post. The Rev, whom I respect and would probably enjoy a cup of coffee with, frequently picks inflammatory topics to attack religion and Christianity. I certainly wish we could choose a more reasonable starting point for such discussions. Alas.

    In regards to justified war, the Bible says laying down your life for a friend is an expression of love. The passage is not talking suicide. There are times when war is as act of defending a person/family/community/country – out of love. Violence should not be the first choice but it is a misinterpretation of the Bible to say it outlaws violence entirely.

    • Bruce, Thanks for the comment, the very reason why bought the comments from you (no i don't do this often, just this once) was so that you would finally get involved in something here, i see you drop on me every day and never make a comment.

      The truth of the matter is, you have to be controversial and i have to talk about the things that I know…I can't just talk about the passivity of Atheism because I don't feel that at all…but i can talk about the flaws I find in religion, especially my former faith, and the Bible.

      • I appreciate your invitation but I do not feel my views would be welcome or rewarding in you forum. While the debate is not primarily for those that participate, I generally prefer to join in where the debate is genuine.

        Also, I hope my presence has not been misinterpreted as lurking. EC is designed to encourage visits to various sites and I typically return drops on those sites that visit my blog.

        • hmm…what do you find about the debate here that is not genuine?

          I think maybe, considering the attitude in which you make this comment appear, that perhaps your presence would not be productive as you say….but from what I see that would certainly be no error of mine.

  • Here are my two cents… It took a statement from Jimmy Swaggart, after he got out of jail, for me to realize this.

    I don't care what verse you read, from Genesis to Revelations, it is about one topic area… It all boils down to sin and being forgiven for that sin.

    Let me show you how it relates here…

    The fool hath said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt [sinful], they have done abominable [sinful] works, there is none that doeth good [fight sin]. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy [sinful]: there is none that doeth good [fight sin], no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity [sin] no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad

  • Here are my two cents… It took a statement from Jimmy Swaggart, after he got out of jail, for me to realize this.

    From Genesis to Revelations, there is one underlying theme: Sin and Being Forgiven. I don't care what section you are reading, it relates to this somehow.

    Please allow me to show what I mean…

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt [sinful], they have done abominable [sinful] works, there is none that does good [fights the good fight]. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand [knows about sin], and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy [sinful]: there is none that does good [fights the good fight], no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity [sin] no knowledge [not knowing sin]? Who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. You have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When the LORD brings back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

  • Have you ever paused to consider that while you are arguing back and forth here, you are only talking about "God" in the Judeo-Christian tradition? Your arguments tend to revolve around the Christian concept of sin, atonement, etc.

    But what about people who believe in a different sort of god?

    • I am not sure if you are directing that at me or not, but I will answer none the less.

      I talk about the Judeo Christian God so much, because it was My God for most of my life…I can't relay the experiences with other Gods really…I mean, one day I may start posting on just the basic concept of God or nit picking the problems with Allah (Jehovah's brother) and the Qu'ran, or maybe even concepts in Zen Buddhism…(Not something I am familiar with). Essentially I speak on what I know, although most of the things I apply to Jehovah can easily be cross applied to most deities.

      The concept of God is universally a bad one…im just stuck in the rut of talkin bout jesus

      • No, I'm not directing it at you particularly. Just a general comment on the back and forth arguments I'm reading here. It's like, if you don't believe in the Christian God, then you're an atheist. I noticed this trait in a lot of Christians. The way of thinking is too black-and-white.

        And I know where you're coming from as I also come from a Christian background, was active in church, almost entered the seminary to become a pastor.

        I'm not an atheist now. But I have a different understanding of "God".

        • I think that Black and White mindset comes from the view that:

          Christian = Heaven
          Anything else = Hell

          so essentially we are all the same unless we are God's chosen people or whatever you wanna call it- hellbound is what we are and all that we are.

          • Well, that is the orthodox Christian position, isn't it? It is pretty black and white, according to the Bible – Jesus is the only way.

            That being said, as for saying "that's all that you are" I would patently disagree – I hope you know, Matt, that I care about you as a person and aside from learning about the atheist mindset, the reason I keep talking to you is because I don't want you (or anyone for that matter) to end up in hell. As I've said numerous times, just because you've turned your back on God, doesn't mean He's completely turned His back on you. There is the aspect (see Romans 1) of God allowing people to persist in their sinfulness, i.e. turning them over to their sins – however, that's purely for the purpose of them coming to repentance. Sometimes it takes a person reaching complete rock bottom before they see the need for Christ. Anyway, the bottom line is Christ still died and rose for you, Matt so that makes at least two of us that don't see you as only hellbound but rather as one of God's wayward children and I hope you turn back to Him. But, so long as you persist in your rejection, unfortunately hellbound is true – but it doesn't have to be that way.

          • It is the mindset of course according to orthodoxy, but not everyone follows that…in fact the Bible can be interpreted otherwise, just ask all my universalist friends.

            and I've told you before that I couldnt dare worship a god like the one you are describing again. He isn't worth my affection, attention, time, pain, sorrow…or feces. I hate that idea of God and I couldn't settle for it if it were true!

  • Omg! i so agree with you!

    actually i just wrote a related post…if anyone's interested ^^

    If Atheists Ruled The World – On Atheism and Immorality

    keep up the good work! 😀

  • Thanks for sharing it with us, I will check it out

  • Of course I realize not everyone follows that. You're stating the obvious so I'm not really sure what point it is that you're trying to make when you say "not everyone follows that" and that "the Bible can be interpreted otherwise." Again, of course I realize that – if I didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we? I just don't understand what you think it proves when you say "well, not everyone agrees that Jesus is the only way to heaven." Duh! I could say the same to you, "well, Matt, not everyone agrees that when we die we just rot in the ground 'till the end of time." I'm really not trying to be antagonistic, I just totally do not get what you're driving at.

  • I'm just saying that there are other CHRISTIAN perspectives…and other non Christian ones…other interpretations that are often forgotten by those in the mainstream…no real point other than that…

    e-hugs?

  • John

    1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

    This is a blatant and crude form of cult mind control. If you can't see this, there is no hope for you.

  • John

    1The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

    I guess you have censored my comment about the above being a cheap mind control tactic used by all cults.

    • nope, just had to approve it first. calm down