My last post has garnered alot of attention, relatively anyway…and i am finding that the method by which replies are sorted doesnt quite suit my normal methods of interaction..so i am going to post all of the replies i have recieved here and answer them…because the responses i have recieved have been good responses and i am very thankful to have them.
I am going to go in order of receipt of first comment and keep any replies in the same loop—if anyone knows a better way to do this, i am very much open to suggestions. So, lets start with my friend Ron:
This is one of the rare times I’m going to evoke the time honored
tactic of saying “out of context.”
If we look back to Aristotle, we find that the relationship between
a master and slave was a mutually beneficial relationship, whereby the
master took care of the slave because he was not capable of taking care
Now, I concede you are most likely more versed in these matters than
I; but it seems conceivable that our modern understanding of this term
could be the problem at hand here
Firstly, in response to Ron:
Definitions across the greek are essentially the same as they are in english here for the word ~Duolos~ (slave/servant) so definitions definitely aren’t the problem…also, my contention with the status of being gods bondservant is more related to the alternatives provided in the Bible to those that choose not to assume that role…aka eternal Damnation and or separation from God. I understand that this is not a universal belief, but it isn’t far from it either…I am taking the position of the largest constituency of the “Church” here.
actually I am going to disagree with you Matt. Look at Aristotle’s concept
of slavery, whereby the slave mutually benefited. Aristotle believed
that natural slaves could not take care of themselves, therefore they
I take it this is the situation implied in the Bible. I’ve never
agreed with the concept of God being so nice as many others believe.
Call me a Calvinist or whatever.
Ultimately I think this is going to boil down to Pascal’s Wager,
what is the consequence of not being God’s bondservant? If we’re wrong
nothing happens! But Lenny, big man, if I’m right – you will have saved
millions of lives of innocent voters. Ok, maybe that was a Ghostbusters
quote but you get what I’m going at.
To Ron: If there is no Heaven or Hell what exactly is the Benefit of being gods slave…the only beneficiary is the person or power that claims to know gods will…you know, the guy in the pulpit telling you to give up 10% of your gross income for “god”. Now if God can provide some sort of evidence that the things claimed in the bible…either heaven or hell or lucifer or SOMETHING should have been provided for in some sort of real physical way…you and I call that evidence…and god, if he is real, has a certain burden to provide at least some semblance of it before we should go believing everything he says or that someone else says he says.
Pascals Wager is a very good way to look at it though, you are correct…Pascals wager requires a view of god that I am no longer willing to accept…see, god has to be held to a standard much higher than that of humans…he is, after all, g-d. So a jealous god and a loving god are not allowed to coexist on my current plane of thought, because god shouldnt be a contradiction unto himself…thats called hypocrisy…god should be expected to meet the same requirements as we feeble humans are required…plus about %$10,000, god being so damn imperfect just doesnt work for me. I just dont think we should settle for a god that gives the ultimatems this one (or any one i have heard of yet) gives… so the personality of god is one problem…evidence for the cause is a whole different one.
Cetta has also chimed in on this one:
Ronald– If you’re wrong, then you were a slave for no reason at all. That’s harm done enough for me.
To which Ron replies:
I guess it boils down to how much you value certain things then Cetta.
And then Cetta again:
If there is no God, but you choose to live in false slavery in hopes that there is a God, is that not bothersome to you, Ronald?
I hope your reply consists of something that Christian as a lifestyle is something you would aspire to even if there is no God. That would be a more correct answer, even though by good deeds alone do you not get to heaven.
Now here I think Cetta makes a good point…what if we are wasting all of our time? I can say that i wasted 6 years of my life giving every ounce of what i could to God and the charge of christianity, what i suspect Ron actually values here…is tradition…which can certainly be a scary thing to let go of.
Christian Lifestyles aren’t so supreme either…my morals aren’t a whole lot different now than they were as a christian, now i judge people a lot less…a biblical trait, and i dont fear god, i dont hope for heaven, or have any guilt that I am displeasing god…that sounds like all positives to me. Losing Christianity made me a better person for one.
I don’t really find it bothersome because I tend to want to live my lifeby the standardsset forth in the Bible. Ask Matt, I’m about as odd as you can get actually.
What you are viewing as a great burden, I view as merely how people should act from a normative standpoint.
That is not to say your view isn’t right for you, it’s simply what you chose to believe – and ultimately that is all this can be. Some people chose to believe some things while others invest their intellect behind other concepts.
The way I live my life would be altered if there was no God, but by and large it would remain the same. Unlike most, this was instilled through various Philosophers rather than the Church as I am not the Church-going all the time type.
But going back to Pascal; do you really view the damage done by living in false servitude greater than ending up in hell? I mean it’s a plausible position to make, but I’m just trying to apply rational choice theory to what we are saying here so that I can grasp it better. (I tend to think in terms of theories from Economics and Political Science, it’s a bad curse.)
Yes Ron, you are indeed about as odd as a person can be…this much is true. Regarding how people SHOULD act, morals and normativity aren’t issues that Christianity has ever had the sole burden of providing…in fact we all know that Christianity in its various forms has been more immoral throughout history than any other movement-ever-. Morals and normativity are simply natural edifices of our existence…god need not apply. Your 2nd and 3rd paragraph intensify my point.
False slavery, for me, is the greatest regret I believe i will ever have in my life…i kick myself every day for the time and passion spend on pursuing god, i also realize that it is part of life that we live and learn from the mistakes we make…My position regarding hell is such that i am comfortable and feel justified by it: That a god that would send his own creation made in his own image to eternal fire and brimstone, is no god that is worthy of my time, attention, nor my affection.
and now Cetta replies to Ron:
on a more serious note: According to Christian traditions either way
you are a “slave”.
You’re either a “slave” to Christ, and in that
you’re “saved” and truly free — I actually heard one pastor call it
“freedom in bondage”. WOW @ THAT, btw.Or you’re a slave to the Devil
and you’re chained to him without even knowing it. Chained by your
sins.Have you ever heard that ideology before?Either way, according to
what YOU said on this entry, you’re pretty much screwed, in the
Christians point of view.So then why not choose which side will NOT
I also agree with Ronald — it’s that type of thinking that is appeals
to a lot of people of faith.
This is more or less the position I am in, why bother…i mean–ok, lets think of it as Pascals Wager vs. Mere Simplicity…Shouldnt the most simple example of livlihood and reality be the true one, verses the one that wants you to believe in a God-Man hybrid dying on a cross?
And yes…most certainly this appeals to masses of people…that is how slavery works…no one wants just one slave…take a whole gaggle.
That more or less concludes the convo with myself, Cetta, and Ronald (my gracious host by the way)…PBUH
Next i have one from a person named Kat:
I think many of us are afraid of what we can’t see or touch. We can’t see or touch the very air we breath but we know it’s there. A promise a friend makes, but at times we choose to trust them and accept a friends word.
Just because you can’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not there. I was just thinking about how complicated this world is, our bodies, everything and am always in awe at God’s creations.
Not judging or trying to sell you a story… but that’s where faith steps in. A lot of what the bible speaks of has already happened. I have complete faith that God will complete the rest of His promises. Satan would have you believe this since he is trying to build His army. Again, not judging you. Please don’t take it that way. If you gave God a chance you might see He loves you and has a plan for you. I enjoy reading all sorts of blogs. This was the first article of yours I read. I’ll be reading somemore.
Now, in response to Kat:
first of all, thank you for reading…also thank you for trying not to be judgmental..i know exactly how hard that task is and applaud you for, in the very least, attempting to not be that way…it is, however, in our nature to do so.
Now, the fact of the matter is, I can indeed feel the air-I feel it in my nose when i breath in, filling my lungs, resisting my car when i drive through it, providing lift for jumbo jets–G-d isn’t doing that…the air is doing it, along with some help from the laws of science. I am sure you didn’t mean to say that you couldn’t feel the air so i will render that a moot point.
As far as a promise…what promise are you referring to? the promise of the Cross? What a wicked way to make a promise to a broken and afraid people—require that they believe something simply unbelievable to the outsider–that is a cruelty I can no longer fathom of a loving god.
This world is most definitely complex…infinitely so due to the ever evolving requirements of it. But the complexity and difficulty behind explaining just how all this got here doesn’t prove god exists to me…all it proves is that nature is a marvelous thing to watch…and it amazes me to see.
You may not have gotten this far into my blog yet, but i hope you explore it, go back a few years and see my older entries that i created as a christian…I have been full of faith before, faith well beyond what is reasonable…i have felt god and listened to him speak , i have been the bond-servant–after looking at all that again, all those years of servitude, of experiencing phenomena that most christians never encounter, i can say that most of those experiences were simply there as part of my emotional frailty and need for a god and a savior…i can now see past it for what it is…an emotional response to an emotional appeal…
I hope you continue to read and comment…
Now one of Cetta’s Friends commented also:
I always saw your comments on cettas LJ. And truthfully I used to think
to myself “this guy is so smart, how the hell is he Christian?”. I
didn’t realize until now you aren’t anymore.
This post is awesome. Someone has to be a slave to believe in the
God of the bible. Back when I was Christian even learning– and asking
about heaven terrified me. I was told in heaven you can not feel
sadness or miss the people who got left behind for not believing,
because you would be so consumed with gods love you couldn’t feel
anything bad. To me that sounded like a bunch of mindless zombies up
there drooling over human flesh.
But yeah, a lot of Christians focus on the whole “free choice”
thing. God suposedly gave us the choice to believe in him to recieve
heaven atc. WTF kind of “choice” is that? If someone walked up to me on
the street and and said “you have two choices, you can have an orgasm
right now or you can have your eyeball ripped out”. Would it really be
Consider me honored Aimey…and maybe blushing just a little bit too… 🙂
Its like choosing between a baseball bat to the face or a free chocolate dipped ice cream fromDairy Queen…
Now we have one all the way from KaneTucky:
I am glad to see your post was not written with the same hate filled
garbage most write with, however may I say two things to you?
One – up until 4 years ago, I was not a believer. I had kids, a life
( albeit a very very messed up life) I was in school.
I came to the end of myself, and seeing no one else whom I could turn
to , God was my saving grace. He is a wonderful Father, he does NOT
make you believe in him, he gives you a choice…. he begs you and I to
When being a bond servant to Christ, we are simply saying we choose his
walk, we want to be with the ONE person in the entire universe who
gladly suffered the pain and death to save me. I want to be with him,
to walk his walk, to please him. I only wish I was in anyway, a help to
you. I know how hard it is to have someone come up to you and say “I
used to be strung out on drugs, now I am strung out on the lord” (
recall that old song?) but it is truth, no matter that I still suffer
hard times, and much confusion I still have him and he has without
doubt been with me so much these last few months that I can almost feel
him standing here now while I write.
Either way you decide, know that I will be praying for you, and hope
you have great success with this blog and all your endeavors.
God Bless You
Kystorms, thanks for your reply, and I mean that…It means alot to me that people are taking the time to read the things i spend so much of my time on. So again, thank you and also for the well-wishes.
My writing style varies…just like my mood, so I can’t promise that there wont be the occasional hate filled post…generally i make them private though, or save them for a non-christian only community like Ex-Christian.net –they dont mind a few disjointed rants here and there….So when or if i do offend you with being “hate filled”, I am sorry, but it comes with the territory.
All of the rest of the things you talk about here are emotions and positions I am very familiar with, something you will gather if you read some of my older posts and my Ex-timony post. I know how it feels to feel god around you all the time, in you, outside of you, guiding your steps…and i know just how great it feels…its like being on a constant emotional high with a peace beyond what i can accurately describe…i know all these things because i have BEEN THERE before–however this is a set of feelings and emotions that occur along most if not all religious paths, which i believe renders the belief that God or Christ is the provider of that to be a mistake.
Thanks again for your well wishes.
And to Josh…i will probably use up an entire post on yours when i get a chance…be looking for it.